Swine Flew
The really short version: Wizards of the Coast has hired a consultant who regularly refers to an entire category of people as “Swine” publicly. Since I don’t want to support that kind of behavior, I won’t be buying anything from Wizards of the Coast while he’s getting a paycheck from them.
The details are these: RPGPundit is a blogger and game designer who likes to call people who have a different view of roleplaying games “Swine.” He seems to care deeply about protecting his actual identity, so I’m just going to refer to him by his screen name. I’m not going to link to his site (since that’s a form of support too) so the quotes in this post include dates. If a quote comes from someplace other than his Xanga site I’ve mentioned that as well. That said, here’s his definition of “Swine:”
I’m not a fan of pretentiousness but that doesn’t justify name calling. And this isn’t an isolated incident, this is a regular thing:
This personal attack is actually pretty chilling. I’m going to break my own policy and link to it, just to make the source absolutely clear. Beware that there’s some foul language.
Wizards of the Coast hasn’t confirmed that RPGPundit is consulting with them, but he claims to be. Given that several other bloggers and designers have mentioned similar deals it seems entirely possible.
Full disclosure: I’m pretty sure that RPGPundit would group me into the “Swine” category too. At the very least I like a lot of “Swine-games.” I’d like to think that I’d take this stand no matter who the “Swine” were; it’s never alright to pick a group of people and give them a derogatory name just because you feel differently. Especially because you feel differently about playing games.
I’m not comfortable with my money eventually going to someone who calls people who don’t agree with him “Swine” so I won’t be buying any WotC products while he’s on the payroll. Too bad, I heard from Rob Donaghue (who’s also “Swine”) that Lords of Waterdeep is a really great game, I was going to pick it up.
I don’t want that to affect all the awesome people that I know that work at WotC or freelance for them, so I’ll be trying to support them more directly. They seem like cool people, nothing against them, so I’ll try to get them the bit of my money that would come their way directly, by buying their side projects or backing their Kickstarters.
Just to be clear, I stand by RPGPundit’s right to say these things. They’re his opinions, no matter how I disagree with them. I just won’t fund this kind of speech, even indirectly.
Hiring someone who says these kinds of things about fellow gamers does not fit with the goals of inclusion for D&D Next. I hadn’t actually known there was this much animosity against people who just want to play and make fun games. “Swine” are D&D gamers too.
good call!
Thanks for posting
So, you decided to smear some random guy you don’t like. Still, you lack courage to name the guy or to put some links so we could read all that in context. How… hypocrytical of you. I think you’ve just lost at least one sale of Dungeon World.
Why don’t you just google RPGpundit and see for yourself. It’s not that hard.
I did actually provide one link, as well as all the information needed to find the original posts (just search for “RPGPundit,” head to the Xanga link (probably the top result) and find the listed date).
I also don’t feel that I smeared anyone. I presented quotes. I didn’t list a real name because one search for it revealed that RPGPundit would rather not have his real name known, and I respected that.
I’m sorry to have lost your sale. I tried to explain my feelings about namecalling and group identity, and the stand I’m taking on it. If those feelings mean you won’t buy my game, it wasn’t meant to be.
Yeah, Sage is just pointing out the obvious. If I want to get angry, I’ll go to the RPGSite, because man, RPGPundit really presents himself as a hateful jerk, and kind of an anti-elitism elitist.
So, wait, are you Pseudo? Is that why that attack is personal? That’s probably a thick question, but I’m just trying to understand.
Sounds like his claim is that Pseudo was trying to “unmask” him. And, if so, why?
I do like what I’ve read of Dungeonworld. I’d love to play too if you’re going to be doing any demos in the Seattle area. (I believe you said you were from that area.)
I’d be happy to play any time. Cons are the best bet, but my con schedule is all off this year, so who knows.
I’m not Pseudo, but I find that treatment repugnant.
Also, hey, aren’t you just angry that WotC didn’t hire YOU instead? Srsly…
Nope, not really. I’m making my own games. If Mike, Monte, or anyone else at WotC wants to talk game design I’d love to, but I’m not interested in a job.
I’m no fan of pundit. He’s an egomaniac publicity hound whose claim that his site is about free speech is the biggest lie of all the various gaming fora.
I also am not all that worried about the future of WotC.
But I don’t really get the boycott approach. The dude is one small consultant among many. They seem to have a strategy of connecting to big-name online personalities to try and incorporate a wider range of the community. I really approve of this strategy and I think it suggests that they learned from their arrogance about 4e that they can no longer rely on the D&D brand alone. Pundit has a gaming relation with Mearles (one that he blows way out of proportion as usual) and Mearles probably threw him a little slice of the 5e consulting budget so they could exchange emails and Pundit’s little gang of sycophants and the few remaining intelligent gamers at therpgsite (which used to have quite a few) would maybe take a look at 5e instead of dismissing it outright as they rightfully did with 4e.
It does surprise me a bit that they would hire Pundit, given how many people he has hated.
But I don’t really know what a boycott serves.
It’s a line in the sand for sure. They won’t even notice my missing dollars most likely.
But it’s a line in the sand I believe in. RPGPundit makes a point of being offensive, I don’t want to support that, but I do greatly support his right to say it. I’m not going to give my money to a company that hires a person like that, even if it is a personal thing.
“Mommy, mommy! Why can’t I play D&D Next like other kids in the playground?”
“Because that makes you a better human being my dear. Now shut up and play Polaris, dammit!”
Insert headlines: Hasbro goes bankrupt because storygamers said “NO!”
This makes me sad.
That said, I suspect that having Pundit and Zak as consultants* is probably mostly a PR thing.
*Does this really just mean “playtester”?
I don’t think it means playtester as they’re paid. I know other external playtesters haven’t bee paid.
I don’t really care if they hired him as a PR thing or for real design. They’re giving money to someone that says really hateful things regularly and on purpose. Not just the occasional slip, but as a routine. I don’t want to support that, even if it’s with less than a cent of my purchase.
If what I’ve heard is true, the consultants are in fact getting paid and in close contact with the design staff. And if what Zak said is true the full list is much more impressive.
Personally I don’t think it’s quite enough for me to pass over D&D Next sight unseen, but Pundit’s involvement is a point against it to be sure. It’s not like I don’t have enough games to play and design, including a few (like 13th Age, Slime Quest, and yes, Dungeon World) that may fill D&D’s niche in my gaming groups.
I figured DnD Next wasn’t going to suck because RPG Pundit (who, under the alias of Nisarg, was a rampant troll on RPG.net and the GreenRonin forums) got himself a playtester position.
I figured DnD Next was going to suck because, instead of improving upon 4e’s rules (or incorporating rules from the new Gamma World), or making new better rules, they’re rushing back to the past to try to appease the stinky terrible grognards to return to DnD. They’re trying to win back the Pathfinder crowd instead of reaching out to a new, larger audience.
Someone let me know when 13th Age starts a new playtest session.
His effect on the game is an entirely separate thing. I just don’t want to give my money to someone who has defined the term “Swine” to cover a group of people. It really makes me feel uncomfortable. He’s welcome to say it and design games, but I don’t want to give him any money (even if that money is a small fraction of a larger purchase).
I guess there is hate on all sides.
I hope not. I’ve been very careful (I hope) to not say anything hateful about RPGPundit. I’m merely saying that he says things that I don’t want to support, which I don’t think is hateful.
Dude. It’s not about what you say but what you feel deep inside. The rest is bullshit rhetoric.
Sadly my new computer with the “mind read people across the internet” attachment hasn’t arrived yet. Can you lend me yours? Or should I just project my own flaws on others as a poor substitute until it arrives?
No need, Latorra can answer that question on his own.
I’m pretty sure I don’t hate RPGPundit. I’ve never met the guy. I disagree with him, hopefully in civil terms.
At this point all I’m feeling is tired.
I was responding to antigrog, who is possibly writing tongue-in-cheek, but nevertheless demonstrates the kind of division and separation that makes our hobby so negative at times.
My apologies then, and I’d be obliged if Sage chose to remove my reply below. I thought you were accusing Sage of hatering.
If it’s alright with you, I’d prefer to not touch any comments on this post, just to keep it all clear and public. If you like I’ll edit the comment with a note that there was a misunderstanding.
“Being intolerant of intolerance is hypocritical!” is a totally invalid argument, sorry.
D7 is invalid argument, sorry.
I wasn’t aware that calling people out for obvious bad behavior counted as “hate.”
So why the hysteria.
Let’s have a hatefest against hate, oh yeah!
Yes, please. If hatred for hate was the only kind of hatred left in the world, it would be a much better world.
Hatred against hatred for hatred is the new black, dude. Wait. Am I priviledged to use “black” in this context or should it be “colorless”?
So you’ve got nothing better to do than troll. Cool, cool.
“Trolling a troll is hypocritical” is a totally invalid argument by your standards, sorry.
Zerg rush!
kekekeke
In other words, fuck liberals.
Some thoughts:
I agree with Buzz that all the “consultants” are probably just a PR stunt and the feedback will likely go in a big slush pile. Considering advertising budgets, it’s probably a cheap form of PR that has a high “authentic grassroots” Astroturf Effectiveness Index.
I also agree that associating with such a divisive person as the RPGPundit is a poor move by Wizards. (It makes me even more suspicious that the consulting thing is just a boneheaded PR stunt that nobody has really thought about.) Public censure (as opposed to censoring!) is a legit form of community participation, since we define who we are as a group by who we elevate as worthy speakers. I support your taking a stand.
All that said, I don’t think this personally affects my position on 5e/Next/New New Coke. I’ve long since written him off as a person who is welcome to his self-imposed exile from the wider community. He seems to think that all storygamers are identical with the small subset of storygamers who are jerks (which is ironic considering that the ones who are jerks are being jerks because they can’t tell the difference between the whole of trad gamers and the small subset who are dysfunctional jerks). Anyone who demonstrates such a fantastically poor understanding of their chosen subject doesn’t even deserve derision before being ignored, to my mind.
I agree that this isn’t likely to be particularly effective. I just really didn’t like the idea of my money going to a person who uses that kind of language. Not as in four letter words language, but the kind of language that defines a group of people as inferior.
It’s my stupid little line in the sand, but I’m holding it.
Actually, I’m not so sure it won’t be effective and didn’t mean to imply that. WotC is pretty damned gunshy about bad PR this time around since they messed it up so badly last edition. It’s entirely possible that community outcry will make them want to distance themselves from anyone who would undermine their Unite The Tribes PR campaign. Not knowing how divisive he really is (he could be just a very loud but mostly ignored jerk for all I know), I wouldn’t speculate on probable.
You do realize of course that this person Pseudo has been cyberstalking Rpgpundit? I find his language inexcusable myself, but he had reasons for it.
I myself would just take it to the FBI, but Pundit doesn’t live in the U.S, and I’m not sure how his country or international law would handle it anyway.
As for calling people swine? I won’t mention the reason, because its overused, but I feel “swine” is far less damning than stuff which has come from other gaming camps. I don’t generally approve of either one. Yet swine is relatively mild on the scale.
I’d rather just game, and let people play what they want, and not get worked up over them.
Tim, I feel like there are better responses than name calling on a public forum. And implying that this stalker is part of the Swine, well, that just makes being called Swine worse.
Personally I find “swine” pretty bad. To me it’s dehumanizing, it turns the discussion into people and animals.
That said, you don’t have to feel the same way. I don’t think I’m all that worked up over it really. I’m just not going to buy a product because I don’t feel like giving money to someone who divide a group into people and “swine.” I’m not calling on anyone else to do the same, just sharing why I won’t be giving WotC money for the time being.
If there’s something I’ve called people that’s in any way similar to “swine” please let me know. And if there are other designers using similar language I’d also like to know, I won’t be buying their stuff either.
Nothing worth continuing with really. I’d share but its likely going to start a lot of fecal matter tossing.
I’ll just say that some Indie designers have a lot of contempt for gamers–not just their game choices.
If you really want to know and are prepared for that mess I can share, but I’d rather not start it back up. There are better things to do like enjoy games.
Ah you can also email me, since public airing of those opinions have been hammered to death.
(Of course it will likely bring out their defenders if I post here–which is fair at least.)
Come on, Tim. Pseudo has crossed the line to some degree, but Pundit has fully earned all the enmity and online harrasment he receives. He did the exact same thing to Vincent Baker, digging up some sordid personal tale from his collegiate past and blasting it out to all who would listen. This is a classic case of you reap what you sow.
I’m with you on your last sentence, but I don’t see how that can not possibly apply critically to Pundit’s entire online existence, which has been an aggressive, divisive and frankly pretty hateful campaign all about not letting people play what they want and getting all worked up about what other people are playing.
Indeed. However, in the end one person behave badly, is not truly and excuse for another to behave badly and that works both ways.
“behaving..”
I’m in complete agreement with Walkerp on this one. Pundit can go cry a river about people stalking/harrassing him. He’s just as guilty and then some. He just doesn’t understand the saying that ‘Karma is a bitch’ even it when it comes back on him.
Pundit simply likes to rile up the hate and get people yelling while gathering some around him to boost his ego. He’s a toxic element in the hobby and serves no purpose but to create more division which helps nobody.
Hey guys, I’ve kept comments open through insults to me, but I’d rather not do any name calling here.
Let’s not call anyone “toxic” or that anyone earned stalking.
Discussing facts is fine, but let’s keep it as civil as possible or I will close comments on this post.
If not ‘toxic,’ then what word would you use to describe someone who’s repertoire consists of spewing venom?
GAOL, your comment is so deeply nested I can’t reply to it, so I’m replying here.
Let’s just use a little less judgement. I’d prefer to say that he makes a point of using offensive language and dividing people.
This whole discussion started with me not wanting to support someone who uses language to divide the hobby, let’s keep the rhetoric down.
Walkerp’s point is, I think, that RPGPundit’s response does not match the actions of person he’s responding to. That keeps personal attacks at least mostly out of it.
Yeah, I wont be buying anything from them either. His ideas about gaming is so misguided that anything he contributes is bad news for D&D Next.
I wrote an article about him on my blog:
http://therpginformer.wordpress.com/2012/04/04/therpgpundit/
Howdy, just saw this link. I appreciate the support.
Just to clarify, since a number of people are calling me a “cyber-stalker”, all I did was perform a whois on therpgsite.com after he made a joke about breaking an acquaintance of mine’s knees (Malcolm Sheppard, a writer for White Wolf – go ask him about it) a few years ago. Pundit registered the site with his real name. When people recently on RPG.net were discussing his claims of being a consultant for 5e, I used his real name to refer to him, instead of his internet handle. I also posted links to some of the nastier posts he’s made on his blog over the years.
Pundit has claimed for years that there is a conspiracy against him, which he has decided I am part of. His claims about being “stalked” derive from that position, and are utterly baseless rhetorical maneuvers. The specific purpose is to delegitimise anyone who has read his blog or his posts on theRPGsite and could possibly refer to any of the vile, vicious, or ridiculous things he has written in the past.
That’s because you’ve been pushing an issue most of us wish would just die and go away.
Dungeon World sales are on the downer I see.
First off I’m wondering how you got that data, as it’s not made public anywhere. In fact I don’t even compile daily data.
If this effects my game that’s fine by me. I’m taking a stand against something I don’t want to see more of. If other people take a stand against me, that’s their right. I would be surprised if they were going to buy it anyway.
By the way Latorra – how do you feel now, that you had called all the toxic anti – rpg.site/4e fanatics to your banner?
(Just a side note: my last name is LaTorra. You’re welcome to call me Sage, it’s my real given first name. I keep getting confused when people talk to this ‘Latorra.’)
I disagree that I called people to my banner. First off, I posted this to my personal site, for which I know the normal audience. I have never seen a post spread like this, and had no intention of doing so. I was sharing my thoughts with a group of people I thought would care.
I never called anyone else to do similar. I shared some facts and my own feelings, that’s it.
As for how I feel: tired. Really really tired. Apparently my decision not to give money, even indirectly, is something that I need to defend over and over again. This was supposed to be a small personal gesture, using what little input I have (my purchases) to vote for inclusiveness and civility. It’s turned into non-stop insults (against me and others) and constant explanation of my thoughts. Plus a lot of challenges to my credibility, morals, and motives.
If you don’t agree you’re more than welcome to ignore me. I’m one person, my one missed purchase won’t even register with WotC. I’m just backing up my desire for an RPG community that’s at least civil to each other with my money.
Great I’m toxic now. More name calling, and here I am, being relatively nice. I post at the site, I usually talk about games. Occasionally I get annoyed at other things, but that’s rare.
I should have asked for the word “toxic” to be dropped from this earlier, sorry.
I don’t think anyone here is toxic. It’s a cheap shortcut word like “swine” that lets us not talk about people.
Hey, let’s drop the use of the word toxic for anything but radioactive waste. Nobody here is toxic.
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=22401
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?620786-5e-Consultants
The actual threads that got this round of internet butthurt going.
Pseudoephedrine got banned from TheRPGSite Facebook [REASON REMOVED].
Walkerp was banned from TheRPGSite [REASON REMOVED].
These are two examples of butthurt people. No more, no less.
Talker of Truths, I’ve done something I really didn’t want to do and edited your text. I won’t have my site used to accuse people of illegal actions. If these people have done what you said, please contact a law enforcement agency.
I don’t really care that other people may or may not feel the same way. You’ll see in my post I speak only for myself and I stand by my reasons.
For the record: I’ve never posted to the RPGSite.
The Truth Is Out There.
Just know the people whose side you are taking in this little fracas. They may not be as pure of heart as you would like them to be.
I don’t think I’m taking anyone’s side. I wasn’t even aware there were sides.
I’m taking a stand against not supporting something I don’t like. As I’ve said several times, this is my personal stand. I don’t know or care who else has issues with RPGPundit, WotC, D&D, or anything else.
I think I’ve fairly stated my reasons for not spending money on a certain product. That is the extent of my stand. Other than that I could care less about the various disagreements and all the bad blood, I have no context on them and can’t speak to the validity of either side.
I’m using my money as a vote for civility. Anything else is another matter.
So, you are trying to advocate civility by wallowing in this miasma of RPG hate and discontent? Isn’t that like fighting for peace? Or maybe even fucking for virginity?
This post certainly hasn’t gone where it was supposed to. My general readership is a bunch of people I thought might be interested to know that a person who says these kind of things is a part of D&D. I know that I’m glad I know so that I can not support this kind of speech.
I’ve been very careful not to draw sides or make broad judgments about RPGPundit. I’ve simply stated that I won’t fund a product that in some way supports someone I strongly disagree with.
I agree that there have been some entirely overboard responses. If I had known the reaction this would get I would have just silently not bought WotC products. But I wanted to share my thoughts with a group of people who I thought would handle them well. This has grown far beyond that and internet anonymity has kicked in.
If I had known I was making a wallow to wallow in I wouldn’t have posted this. As it is removing the post feels like giving in to me, so I’m keeping it up.
Sage, good on you for taking a stand against divisiveness. I’m personally shocked to hear that WotC is hiring someone with these views, and like you, my response will be to avoid purchasing any fifth edition products.
Whatever worthwhile input RPGPundit could provide to the fifth edition design process isn’t worth this. Honestly, they should be hiring you instead – although I guess you’re providing advice free instead.
Thanks for saying that, but (especially after saying this) I wouldn’t work for WotC. But I’d happily hang out and talk game design any time, with anyone, including the D&D design team, I just won’t take money for it.
Pundit’s one of the worst people in the hobby. Seeing another rpg developer take a stance like this is nice to see.
Sometimes invoking a hater brings on other haters. Some of them are literally named Hate!
Thanks for letting us know, Sage. You’re very principled – if this was my page I’d probably just delete the “attack” comments. At the least I’d say to everyone: try not to listen to people who are obviously Posting While Angry. That behavior invalidates an argument right off the block, for me.
Late to the party, but I’ve got to say Sage, you’re an exception to the rule when it comes to people on the internet. Way to handle this like a human being.
Oh snap, this was last year…